Sustainable Schools Network - Katie Norman

Educating our children and making them aware of how to live their lives sustainably is no mean feat.  In this episode, I speak with Katie Norman about her business called the Sustainable Schools Network (SSN).
Katie is the chief steward for the organisation that has been in operation for almost two years. The SSN philosophy on Education for Sustainability (EfS) is to engage in an ongoing reciprocal dialogue that explores playful possibilities in our collective educational spaces.  As much as this is an inward, and at times, personal journey for us all, it is very much about creating a shared path and a shared vision that engages curiosity, critical thinking and creative expression.  Although they started this organisation with a focus on sustainability, the more they lived the experience of sustainability, the more they realised that sustainability is about learning.

In this interview, we discuss how:

• the Sustainable Schools Network came about
• sustainability requires a whole-of-school approach that involves everyone from the kids to the teachers, school staff and parents
• the journal that they produce quarterly to educate students on a wide array of subjects around sustainability is becoming a great success and a useful tool
• this program is available to all schools throughout Australia
• children can influence change, not just for themselves, but for the people around them, including their parents
• schools that engage with this program and educate children about sustainability has a ripple effect, with  9,100 schools throughout Australia using it, shaping our future leaders
•  change starts with us as individuals
•  sustainability wasn't included in curriculum for student teachers as part of their core subjects.

I really enjoyed this interview with Katie and am sure that you will too.

Links
Sustainable Schools Network
Facebook
Linkedin

Transcript

Jeremy Melder  00:00

Hello, my name is Jeremy Melder, and I'm the presenter from Beaming Green. Before we start, I would like to acknowledge that this podcast is being held on the traditional lands of the Bundjalung people and paying our respects to elders both past, present and emerging. The Beaming Green podcast is a podcast that will help you take out some of the stress and confusion about how to live your life more sustainably. We do this by introducing you to inspiring people with first-hand experience and expertise who covered aspects of sustainability, from human interest to environmental perspectives, helping you to thrive and enhance your life, and the lives of your friends and family. Welcome to Episode 31 of beaming grain. The education of our children is extremely important. And today I'm speaking with Katie Norman, who is a co-founder and director of the sustainable schools’ network. Her career started as a therapeutic program facilitator and drug counselor around Australia. Katie knows what it takes for behavior change to occur. After having her three children, Katie pursued volunteer roles within schools in both Hong Kong and Australia, with one particular highlight involving the creation of a cookbook called the taste of Tullabudgera. After exposure to environmental issues overseas, and a developing knowledge of education for sustainability. Katie recently delivered the education for sustainably in Queensland discussion paper 2019/ 2020. Please join me in welcoming Katie to Beaming Green. Welcome to beaming green. I'm really happy to have you on here. And it was Isabella that recommended that I chat to you. And she didn't just say at once, but a number of times. So, it's like, Okay, well, we'll try and make this happen. And I'm really glad to have you on. Thank you.

Katie Norman  02:13

Yeah, thanks for having me. And I'll give a shout out to Isabella. She's one of those very special humans. That's doing amazing work and just spreads a lot across our region.

Jeremy Melder  02:25

Yeah. Katie, I wonder if you could give our audience a little bit of a background as to how and why you got this sustainable schools’ network started?

Katie Norman  02:36

Well, I don't know if you want the long story, the short one. So, I will try and try and just give you the authentic one. quite some years ago, I had a bit of a Lorax moment is a fantastic kids book by Dr. Seuss, called The Lorax. And I was in Hong Kong. I was watching Planet Earth to David Attenborough's Planet Earth to couldn't go outside because the air pollution and recognized that I'm breathing air that was coming through an air filter, not able to go outside yet I'm watching this movie, this documentary about how incredible the planet was. And it's just one of those moments where I would have to do something like I can't not do anything. This is ridiculous, but I'm paying for clean air right now. And although that was in Hong Kong, I just desperately didn't want to see that happening in Australia. So, you know, I went on a process there of trying to help the school that my children were at, become a little bit more sustainable and recognized that I had a capacity to be able to help other schools and teamed up with an amazing group of people formed a board put together a charity and we had an event called the sustainability symposium 2019 sustainability symposium at Somerset college. And it was incredible. We had some students from a student from Bali come over and present there were teachers, young people, business managers, is a fabulous day. And really, it was just about, you know, our schools, such a central point of our community where if we don't educate for sustainability, well, there really is not hope for the future. So yeah, the organization ran as a charity up until March this year where, unfortunately, we were pretty heavily impacted by COVID. Imagine doing? Yeah, look, it's difficult to have the confidence to run events, whether to do them online or in person. You know, funding wasn't as forthcoming because we didn't have long pre-established relationships before COVID here. And our team also had, you know, some changes to their situation, whether that was Family Health Matters, employment changes, things like that. So, you know, we were kind of affected across a number of different layers. And I made that as a charity. We couldn't maintain the work that we were doing. Fortunately, I was able to take it on as a business and on a much smaller scale. So, you know, the last couple of months, I've got Patty Lee, who is just incredible human a bit like Isabella just spreading, spreading her joy and love around. And you know, I'm just so inspired by her. But she was really the person who kept saying, we’ve got to keep this going kind of got to keep this going. And so, we have we released a journal on the first of this month as really the central piece of what the SSN is right now. And we will keep doing that work. And we've got some other exciting projects coming up as well.

Jeremy Melder  05:35

Well, thank you for sharing that. So, what can you tell us a bit about this journal that you've developed? what's that? About?

Katie Norman  05:43

Right? So, we wholeheartedly believe that sustainability education needs to be a whole school approach. So, you need to include, not just the students, and not just the teachers, like most of education is considered to be about teachers and children, which, you know, you know, that's the core business, but to support that you've got parents, I mean, without the parent, you don't have any children, right? Then you've got your business service managers, you've got marketing paper, you've got ground staff, your cleaners, Paul, about the admin, and specialists within the school system. So, you actually, and you have a lot of organizations that work with schools as well. So, what we wanted to do in our journal is started to tell that story about how schools are a community. So, we feature a school to tell their story, sort of as a whole, we feature a teacher, and of course, they're important and a student. But we also feature an organization that could support the school to be more sustainable. And we've also feature that they used to be a parent feature, but this year where we're having more of a school community member, or could be business service manager, or cleaner teachers, as teachers are often forgotten about in this process, as well. So, we were trying to showcase the value of all these different people that are in the school community, and then just give some hints and tips, you know, our events calendar, we do a book review in it, you know, so we're just writing grants, like what grants are available for schools to apply for that sort of thing. So, it's really a communication pace. This sector worked so hard, like the university professors and organizations that deliver training and things like that they work so hard, but often this story is not told. So that's, that's why our journal exists. We want to tell that story below what you're doing. Yeah, that's

Jeremy Melder  07:32

great. I've got to say, look, I was very impressed. My wife and I did some work with Sathya Sai college. And, and their awareness of environment, the environment, not just from, you know, the teachers, but the students. And the parents were wonderful, you know, to see that. So, you know, I think some of that is rubbing off on what you what you're doing. It's obvious, but my thing is, so how do you find new schools? Do they come to you? Or do you have to go out there and, you know, solicit business, so to speak.

Katie Norman  08:10

It kind of goes both ways. We get a lot of inquiries, through our website, and also through social media. So, we always keep a social media presence. And yeah, look, we just get questions from all over the place all over Australia, just, you know, how can I've seek this out? You know, my school wants to get involved? How can I do more of this work, you know, it comes from all I got, really. But of course, we also do make contact with schools and send them emails and see if they, you know, are interested in contributing to the journal, if we hear a good news story on, you know, ABC or wherever school pops up, like, won't give away what our next school feature is. But I'm very excited about this one, I found these guys in a very inspirational book I've been reading and if I tell you the book, it'll tell you the school. So right away. You know, that's how we've identified this school is, you know, this really amazing book that really changed changes your view, you know, the status quo view at the moment of humanity, you won't get it's very early in the morning right now. So, I won't go too deep into these things. But, you know, we have, we can have quite a negative view that nobody's doing anything. You know, there's so much negativity in the world, so much discrimination. As I mentioned, negative impact on the environment, it's important to remember that most of humanity are actually deeply good people that want to do the right thing. And sometimes we don't know how to do that. Sometimes. We're a bit exhausted or you know, don't know where to get support from to help us move forward. So, you know, it's really, I think, important to have that positive outlook, be hopeful. Seeing the good in people because if you see the good in people, they will show you the good, yeah. Good side of them. And this school has reimagined education. And I'm so excited to be able to say to them next issue in our journal.

Jeremy Melder  10:11

Oh, that's great. So, when is that journal coming out?

Katie Norman  10:14

A while based on the first of September, work to do? We do them every two months. So

Jeremy Melder  10:19

wonderful. And so, you do also go out and visit the schools? And is there some sort of an assessment or some sort of criteria that a school needs to meet to be part of the sustainable school’s network? Or is it just anyone can join?

Katie Norman  10:32

Not at all look with in our charity version, we had a member school program that was free, anyone could join it, it was basically about saying, you are making a commitment that you want to do something about sustainability. version two, we're basically teaming up with some amazing organizations to put together a program called zero positive for schools. And that will be we wrote, we wrote a discussion paper last year about the need to have a very holistic program in Queensland and really in Australia, where you can measure your impact, you have some support from program facilitators, you know, sustainability educators really, and you can communicate between schools and share your knowledge and resources and build the momentum. And that's what this program will do. So, we're just about to move into the pilot phase of that, where schools are coming on board. And we're looking forward to really growing that over the years. It's a five-year program, it'll look at all you know, all the environmental aspects of wastewater energy transport. And the reason it's zero positive is because it's not just about getting to net zero anymore, it's about actually regenerating. And that's the part that I love most about the program is there will be true planning, there will be you know, biodiversity and learning about your natural environment. All the while building out your social capital and the social aspect of sustainability. That's an exciting one.

Jeremy Melder  11:56

So, what are the types of schools that you're taking? Because I know that you know, city size a private school, but you're getting public schools jumping on board as well and

Katie Norman  12:06

100%? Yeah, Jeremy, the thing I love before I think a lot about satisfy is that they aren't just about the natural environment, obviously, they have that they physically are located, particularly the senior campus in beautiful natural environment, but their philosophy, their value system, and the way they educate is different. It's about, you know, looking after each other, having respect for one another, and really building up that social side of their school. And so, everything aligns there. And so, it just makes sense to them. Yeah, there's a lot of other schools that are starting to move in that direction. But there's some fantastic examples of public schools that have just taken this and run with it. They've done grants to get, you know, waste resources and facilities on site, they're really using the container refund scheme to keep funding, like, that's the economic side of it, of course, it does cost money. So, they find funding streams to keep their programs going. You know, we just featured grandpa state school also in between, and, you know, they've, they've spent a lot of time raising community awareness, getting, you know, their parents involved to set up beautiful gardens down there that, you know, they've got the chicken, you know, like they had these beautiful avocados they had in their hands. You know, they're really having raced. And so state schools are doing some pretty incredible stuff with been doing regional summits over the last couple of years, because we see the value in reaching out to areas that don't have access to Metro resources. And a perfect example of some of the incredible work state schools can do is Belgium Garden State School. They found that after Finding Nemo, that the number of clown fish that were being taken off, the rave had actually increased that movie, aim to decrease that or you say increased it. Yeah. Everyone wanted to clown fish. Oh, I happened. So, you know, one of the teachers that they were telling me is that what happens is, you take the clown fish off the race, and because it's not in their natural environment anymore, most of them don't survive. So, they started a breeding program to give clownfish to pet shops that could sell them and try and stop people from taking them directly off the rails. Right and as a school, I mean, there is no mandate whatsoever to implement a program like that. You know, the five and six kids look after the fish, they feed them, they monitor them, they make sure if the tanks are sick, got what spot in it or any of that sort of stuff. And you know, the responsibility of these kids and the opportunity like they're all you know, after this spot to look after the fish by the time they get to your five and six You know, and obviously the school it doesn't stop there. There are responsibilities from pre prep all the way up to you. Six of different programs have implemented, but it's incredible what the school is done as state school. Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah,

Jeremy Melder  15:14

you know what I'd like to do. If you run your next company, when you've done your next competition, you've got a winner, maybe we can have them on and we can interview them what they've done. Yes, yeah. For sure. As part of their, you know, promotion for them. Yeah. And for you guys as well. Yeah. Yes. Thank you, Jeremy. Yeah, that'd be good to do that. So, you've got a number of schools. So how many onboard so far?

Katie Norman  15:38

Oh, look, I couldn't tell you a number we've had, I think, at last count, there was a couple of 100 that we've worked with in some way, whether they've done a professional development with us or they've presented or, you know, being featured in our journal. Yeah, but I couldn't tell you the exact number because I can actually add up that up for a while, like you get busy. You know, this is one of those challenges of running your own businesses, or a charity is, you know, do you do the actual delivery of your programs? Or do you collect your data and analyze it? And often, I'll have to admit the data side of it. Yeah. goes to the side while I focus on getting stuff done. Yeah,

Jeremy Melder  16:18

yeah. Yeah. With the parents define, there's more engagement. Because the kids are also engaged, you know, are they educate? What I mean is, are they educating their parents, you know, about, you know, what they're doing in in the home? Because they're learning something at school? I don't I find that kids are very, very good at transforming what the decisions of their parents, what do you think, oh, the nag factor is gold. Like that's, that's gold? Yeah. Yeah, know,

Katie Norman  16:50

the kids are absolutely taking what they're learning at school and going home with it. And that's, that's the good news story is that the kids are making a difference now. Yeah. I always talk about how do you how do you make change? Do you make change now to make change in the future? Like, what are you? How are you? How are you operating? And the beautiful thing about schools is that we can actually make a difference. Right now, there's nine and a half 1000 schools in Australia, more than that now. So as a sector, we can make a huge difference to our environmental footprint and social footprint, right now. Yeah. But we can also through education, future proof. So, what's beautiful about the kids going home to the parents is that we can make that difference right now. And the hardest thing to change, or how does time in your life to change is really as an adult. So, if the kids can change the parents, because I'll tell you what, there's a lot of professionals out there that, you know, psychologists and psychiatrists have been trying to do that for years, I think the kids are potentially going to do that. I shouldn't say that. pretty well. But I'm having parents come to me with those sorts of stories of like, my kids, you know, I really worried and so I've recognized I need to make a difference, I need to change, can I help, Can I do something or, you know, I do often get emails from parents of like, I don't know how to approach my school, you know, so my advice to them is always find someone who's an ally in the school that shares your view, you know, you do always have the pain, say, or PNF road that you can walk because that's what they're there for. But don't, don't go in there guns blazing, do it in a way that engages them to your cause in a really positive way. Because, you know, change happens best when it's not the carrot and the stick, it's actually an intrinsic, intrinsic desire that people have to change, you know, if it's an external thing, it's just punishment, or you know, a reward, it's not going to be lasting change. So, you need to change the hearts and minds of people. And the best way to do that is from a really positive angle, where they feel like capable to join you on the journey

Jeremy Melder  19:06

where they feel empowered, and rightly so setting power and feeling of empowerment that you can do. Yeah, I think, you know, I think a lot of the people that I've been speaking to somewhat feel, I don't know if you've seen the latest David Attenborough film, but they initially feel like my time is running out, you know, the discussions that I have and I sometimes as I'm saying, like you probably immersed in this sort of work, they go oh my god, this you know, 10 years to turn this all around and why are you know, people not hearing this message and so on. And, and they you could be disillusioned by that. But it's like we you just got to do one, you know, turn one stone at a time and do the best you can and not be disillusioned and it's I think it's great what you're doing because you're actually you know, it's one person at a time, but that's multiplying, isn't it?

Katie Norman  20:01

Well, that's what schools offer is that multiplication have an impact. And look, I, I have that sense of urgency. Like, I really, I feel that too, and most people I work with feel that. But at the same time, I've had moments of being disillusioned, like, I really have moments where I burn out. And, you know, I've got to remind myself and surround myself with people that recognize those signs, and they lift you up, and when you recognize those signs, and then you lift them up, and that's why this this has been a network is because it is about supporting one another. Yeah. And, and you can't, can't do this work on the natural environment without that social. That's Oracle, social capital, we've got to have those relationships, those connections and partnerships, to help each other out. Because, you know, this, these, these are hard times sometimes because you do go, why don't people get the message. And, you know, you need to remind yourself, I, you know, my background was actually working in the corrective services sector. And, you know, you've got to remind yourself how people have got there or, you know, recognize that the person in front of view is not necessarily been on your journey. So, you've got to understand their journey before you can figure out how to help them. Yeah. You know, and that's a really important thing to do. And when you are very one eyed and channeled into, oh, my gosh, we've got to make change, we've got to make change, right now, it's really easy to forget that the people that you're meeting are not necessarily meeting you with the same sense, know, the urgency, or understanding. So, you know, that's why education is important. But it's also why partnerships and collaboration are so important in this in this space.

Jeremy Melder  21:46

Yeah, I think you've, you know, brought up a very valid point there, you know, in terms of seeking to understand the other, you know, because you've not walked in that person's shoes, no, right. So, it's my understanding that you've walked in that what that person's gone through. And that then you can meet in terms of, you know, discussing what, what's important to you, and why it's important to you, and then you because you understand their journey. And I think it's so important, because, yeah, it's like kids going to school, and their parents are all got different stories. Definitely. And they've got different understandings. So, it's all what they bring, it's all part of that what I call the soup mix, you know, that little, little bit of ingredients that, you know, makes up this soup. And someone has disturbed together to make it a nice soup, you know, and I guess that's what we're all trying to do with this environment issue is to try to, you know, do the best we can, and you're doing the best you can. And hopefully, those ingredients coming together will make it, you know, a good thing, you know, good soup. Yeah.

Katie Norman  22:51

Well, look, ever, everyone's got value, and you've just got to find that beautiful thing inside of them. And what makes them tick in what I love about this work is that by doing that, by not expecting everyone else to be the same as you, that's where we get creative. That's where we, you know, that's what's beautiful about life? Well, that's the same in nature, really, you know, humans are reflecting nature, because we're not separate from it, we are part of nature. And, you know, the beautiful thing about nature, is all those little intricate details and differences. And, you know, if we can value that a little bit more, I think we'll look after it more as you know, as a species as, as an environment.

Jeremy Melder  23:35

Yeah, I think Yeah, we've, there's seems to be an element of the human being differentiated from the environment altogether. And that is a superior being thing going on. And I think it's true, we got to integrate more with nature and listen to nature, I think a lot of the interviews that I have, the predominant theme seems to be to slow down and just observe. And I go, this is a really good lesson for me, you know, personally, because I just go, you know, if we don't sit down, observe what's going on around us, we can't respond in an appropriate manner. Rather, you know, because we just, I think a lot of us, or I speak for myself in the past have worked just on what's in front of me without really thinking, you know, what the impacts of all these and what you're doing is getting people to think, feel and act. Yeah, you know, yes. Or the other way around.

Katie Norman  24:29

Whichever. Okay, I don't like I think, feel that you know, behave. But I think this is that's actually that absolute, a patient may have what's happening, you know, the opposite of anyway in the education sector, where instead of just slowing down and recognizing the young, beautiful, incredible humans that are in front of us, were like, okay, we're going to get through this and we're going to get through that we're going to tick this box and they've got to, they've got to learn this before they move on to the next stage and we're preparing them now. For what Coming up in a year or two is time saving going. This is where they're at. These are all the, you know, different beings and souls that are in front of us right now what do they need? Yeah, I like teachers have, you know, a really do admire teachers greatly because the number of pressure points for them is incredible. You know, parents have got expectations, the schooling system has expectations of principals, and you know, the admin team, I've got expectations and on them as well, on the principal's also, meanwhile, there's up to 30, children with all their different needs in front of them, you know, and they are all different, you know, just because they're in a year one class doesn't make them all, this stock standard, you know, boss that we can just shove into science, math, English, and you know, pump them out the other end, you know, they're also different. And so, to be able to deal with all those exterior factors and meet the children where they are, the teachers that can do that are just mind blowing, there is so incredible, I don't

Jeremy Melder  26:13

know how they do it, to be honest, I just feel I just think, you know, because we were doing this thing with the boomerang bags. And that's where we met up with satisfy and they were volunteering in it. Some of the kids were volunteer, and they've all got different needs. And I was just watching, you know, the staff, one of the teachers is just managing all these different needs and ongoing. That's amazing. That's so impressive, you know. So yeah, you're right, it's about you know, you've got 30 people in a room, you know, eyes looking at you. 123 eyes on me. Yeah. Because the teachers, as you mentioned, have a curriculum that they've got to deliver, how do you find they're embracing the sustainability thing? Is it another extra element for them? Or they embracing it?

Katie Norman  27:02

No. I mean, I get to have contact with teachers that are embracing it, of course, but they will certainly be in the minority. And I don't think the teachers that don't embrace it, and not doing that, because they don't want to probably because they don't know how Yeah, so keep in mind that the majority of teachers, like 99% of teachers that have gone through their own education process, have never been educated in sustainability. So, it's a cross curriculum priority in our Australian curriculum that is supposed to be embedded in every subject. So, from science to humanities to English, everything, right? But if you've never been educated in that, how are you supposed to do that? Yes. So unfortunately, most people, most teachers would see it as something additional. So that that's a bit of a issue when, you know, like, how they're so busy. They don't know what to do. So, you know, there seems like a clean-up Australia Day where they go, yes, okay, we've done our sustainability thing, because we did our clean up Australia Day. But that's not the way it's intended. And people that really understand what sustainability education is understand that it's not just a subject that you're teaching. It's a way of thinking it's a way of being its wedlock. It's a culture that you're bringing into the classroom that, and it's a mindset, it's how you see the world. And so, as you're teaching things, it's not you have to do something extra. Yeah, it's just the way you do it.

Jeremy Melder  28:35

That's right.

Katie Norman  28:37

But, you know, our system doesn't necessarily allow for it to be taught that way. Because we're still very much, you know, this is what this is the content, you've got to learn, have they learned to move on to the next one? So, you know, I guess we talked about reimagining education because, you know, sustainability is a way of life and a mindset. So, it's about doing education differently. You know, a great mentor of mine is Dr. Allison SAML from Griffith University. Shout out to her right now. You know, people like her and Professor Amy Carter, Mackenzie from Southern Cross University really grasp what this means and yeah, and how to do this in the classroom. But most teachers have never been exposed to incredible humans like Dr. Ali or Amy. And so, for them, it's pretty difficult to figure out how they're going to put another thing into their curriculum into their lesson planning and their day to day working with children. So, you know, I guess our goals for the SSN has always been to try and provide some professional development that showcase how this could work differently, and that it doesn't need to be something extra. And I think the teachers that have engaged with our work have understood that and have now taken that into classrooms and you know, I look forward into the future. Same all teachers have that opportunity.

Jeremy Melder  30:02

Yeah. And that's a great thing that you're doing, because I think you're right. It's an extra bit of work, but it's a worthwhile thing that they can do. And yeah, so the thing I was gonna ask you what, which we think you covered was that they are already doing some sort of professional development in that area, are they?

Katie Norman  30:19

Well, I'm not in their teaching degrees, I'm aware of some universities that now are offering more units, like about sustainability education. But, you know, I guess there's a, there's a difference between sustainability as a concept and sustainability education, I would look at sustainability as a concept around, you know, what do you understand that to mean, whereas sustainability, education is more of a process? Yeah. Yeah. So, I think, you know, there's some of that starting to seep into the preservice teacher training, I would suggest it's not in business manager training, or, you know, or into the groundskeeper training or things like that. So, some scope there to improve that. But the teachers that are already trained, there's some opportunities for professional development. I know the Australian Association for environmental education, have their biannual conference this year, which is in Perth, and people will be able to tap into that from all around Australia, I think, this year, and that's a great professional development opportunity for teachers, just to get little, small amounts of extra training to help spark their interest and change their practice. Yeah, so things like that are available for teachers, just making it known that, that that's there, and they can take it up.

Jeremy Melder  31:43

I'm a bit surprised that, you know, that the Department of Education, you know, haven't really sort of looked into this, you know, way of professional development, you know, because it's kind of an important thing. It's on the tip of everyone's tongue, I would have thought this sustainability issue, he would have thought that that started, you know, like, I'm going up, you know, Katie, I'm sorry. You're saying, Sally here, I'm going Hang on a second. This is there's a governmental, you know, there's an imperative here that we've got to, you know, look at educating our teachers that are educating our kids in in any issue that, you know, we've got supposedly 10 years to sort out.

Katie Norman  32:26

Jeremy, make it really clear right now that I did ask you to say, look, we have an interesting situation, you know, around Australia, in terms of how this is delivered, and I'm fortunate to sit on a group, an informal group called the Australian sustainable school Alliance, that we share quarterly, you know, what's going on in the States, so we can support one another, again, back to that collaboration, which, you know, a really value that, that as a group that I sit in, and, you know, we used to have what was called the Australian sustainable school initiative, which was a federally federal government funded initiative that provided resourcing to the states to deliver sustainability education. Queensland had that for about, you know, really solidly for about two and a half to three years, which was the smart science program. It was fantastic. And then it was unfunded and has not been replaced. New South Wales have had some lingering funding out of that federal government money to have a website with some resources on it and do some small-scale projects. You know, our lighthouse, out a piece of me of what is possible is Victoria, who have had for years, you know, for over a decade, a department called sustainability Victoria. Now, if your state government has that department, you've probably likely to do a few more sustainability initiatives. And education has been a core part of their business, which they've, they've had resource smart schools come out of that. And they've the impact that they've had in terms of water saving co2 emissions, waste diverted from landfill, you know, energy savings, you know, financial savings have been incredible. And they've tracked that and can really demonstrate the change. That's possible when you when your state government funds this and supports it, and they don't just do it in the metro regions. They do it out in the, you know, in the regional areas. But what was more exciting about their work is that last year, they released a report around the well-being impacts. So, for student and staff, this has had really positive impacts on the schools that they've worked with. So, you've not only had the environmental impact or the financial impact, but that’s also all been positive. You've also had this really positive social impact out of that work, and, you know, every time out the rep from resource Mart gets on the phone, we all just listen and go, oh, I wish, you know, I wish that's what was going on in the rest of Australia. You know, it's really incredible what, what's happening down there? But yeah, look, you've, you've hit the nail on the head, you know, essentially education is state government responsibility. We're looking at businesses, we're looking at every sector of our community having to adhere to tougher emission regulations, and sustainability commitments, and all sorts of things like that, get out education sector has not had the same pressure put on it. And, and I agree with you that this the time is, now we need to be doing that now. Because I really got no time to waste. And like I said earlier, you know, nine and a half 1000 schools in Australia, I think about the environmental footprint of that, like all those that land, the number of people involved, like I think there's 4 million or more kids that are involved. Well, that's a pretty significant part of that population, and

Jeremy Melder  36:01

then multiply that by two with the parents, parents, you know, yeah, and the other people around there, and that is a multiplying factor. And it's not just because we're looking at as a multiple of, we're trying to change the earth, you know, resources being balanced, did tip the balance back, you know, and we're doing something that's really important, and why don't we spend more money on education? Yeah, look,

Katie Norman  36:29

I mean, I'm fascinated, and even some people in the sector don't quite understand that, you know, for instance, you go and put solar panels over all the schools in Australia. That's fantastic. Guess what most people at my schools will just go free power, let's turn everything on, like, who cares? Because it's not costing us any money, and it's not hurting the environment. But you know, what, like, imagine if we actually changed the behavior and reduced our use, and didn't need that extra care, because I can tell you, when the soul goes on the roof, most of them still have got energy bills, because they're still using it. Right? Why was there no education funded to go with that infrastructure? Yeah. You know, like, we're rolling out the infrastructure, you know, you can put water tanks in, but unless you, you know, see where that water is going check for leaks, you know, understand using their job, the hot flashes in the fog, like all these behavioral things, yeah. Well, I we won't take them home into our households with the nag factor that, you know, they what's the point of investing in all that infrastructure? If we're not going to change the behavior to go with it? Yeah, you know, because, like I said, sometimes their behavior gets worse when you put the infrastructure in, because you didn't do the behavior change campaign know, things, that things back in the 80s, like, you know, keep Australia beautiful, and, you know, clean up, pick up your leader, all that sort of stuff, were really successful campaigns. And, and we're not doing that education element. To go with those infrastructure changes, you have to do them both at the same time. Agree, and particularly in a school community where we've got this willing audience right their huge audience that we can, you know, we can see that change. right then and there. Yeah,

Jeremy Melder  38:13

yeah, absolutely. I'm mindful of your time that you've got that I know, you got five minutes left, but how can people help you and your organization? You know, what, what do you need? We need

Katie Norman  38:25

people power for sure. We need schools to get involved. So, I encourage you to reach out our email addresses info@ssn.org, or you have that was alright, to put in there. Jeremy, I'll be putting all that

Jeremy Melder  38:40

in the show notes on the episode anyway. Yep.

Katie Norman  38:42

Excellent. And, of course, we need funding. So you know, like, I need to be able to get more teachers involved in supporting schools, you know, the ones that do know what they're doing, that are already trained and ready to go, we, you know, we don't have the funding available to put together some regional facilitators or get schools involved in zero positive for schools, you know, we really do need some support from organizations that are interested in this work, and you want to get involved. So, it's either the two things at the moment is, you know, the schools getting engaged and, you know, it doesn't matter if you're, you think you don't know enough or you don't know where to start in your school. Like, that's what we're here to help with, we can help you find that way in and give you that support. place to be like, you know, I guess we often find that there's one person in a school that's a real champion, and they do burn out really quickly. So, where you don't have the support in your own school, you can get that support without networking nights or, you know, even just feeling like you're engaged with a community of people that share your passion and your interest. And that are trying to do the same thing as us. So, if you can't get that in your own community, we can provide that for you. Yeah, so and I You know, if you're an organization that does want to get out the word of what you're doing, we've got the journal as a way to be able to showcase your work. So, reach out and we can share further information about that too.

Jeremy Melder  40:12

Fantastic. Look, Katie, I really want to thank you for your time I will be putting on the show notes, all this information and putting links and so on. If there's anything else you'd like to add, before we go, please say it now.

Katie Norman  40:27

Look, I would just say a big thank you to you for the work that you do. I think it's incredible and so important and be so brave. I find these things pretty nerve racking. So, this is incredible that that's what you're doing. So yeah, huge thank you to you, Jeremy. And a huge shout out to all the people that have you know, helped get SSM where it is now and that are continuing to help. You know, this is just really important work that we're doing. We really need to reimagine education.

Jeremy Melder  40:53

Let's do it together, all of us. Absolutely. Thank you very much. Thank you for listening to this episode of Beaming Green. If you got something out of this episode, we'd love to hear what your biggest takeaway was. There are a number of ways you can do this; you can leave a review on Apple podcast. Or if you have a Facebook, Instagram or LinkedIn social media page, you can leave a review there. But don't forget to tag us so we can thank you personally. Lastly, go to beaminggreen.com and subscribe to our newsletter and receive free how to be green guide. At Beaming Green, we are committed to providing you with a thought provoking and insightful program that inspires you to live your life in accordance with your true nature and purpose. We do this by sharing stories from people that are walking their talk and are committed to living their lives sustainably with their mind, body and soul. So, you can share this with your friends and family and leave the planet. The music for this podcast was created by Dave Weir